In this episode, Pure Strategies Co-Founder Tim Greiner and host Jess Baum discuss the evolution of preventing pollution, the pitfalls of waiting for the data to catch up, and the benefits of belonging to the B Corp community.
Soil to Soul: Farming, Food, Wine, and our Collective Future is dedicated to exploring diverse voices and perspectives as they relate to farming, food, wine, and the collective future we’re working to build. Soil to Soul is brought to you by Bonterra Organic Estates and is hosted by Jess Baum, Bonterra’s Senior Director of Regenerative Impact.
Today’s guest is Tim Greiner, Co-Founder and Managing Director of Pure Strategies, a consulting company that has created sustainability goals and solutions for many clients including Stonyfield Farm, Ben and Jerry's, Walmart, The North Face, and Seventh Generation. Like Bonterra Organic Estates, Pure Strategies is also a B Corporation, and is celebrating its 25th year in business. Tim is a co-founder of the Chemical Footprint Project and has guided sustainable chemicals management strategies for companies across diverse industries. He has also led regenerative agriculture projects with food brands and retailers. We'll talk about Tim's wealth of knowledge and experience in the sustainability field, including how he got started all those years ago and what has kept him going ever since.
Today’s episode doesn’t focus on food and wine, but it’s an excellent conversation we are sure you’ll enjoy. Listen in as Jess and Tim discuss the evolution of preventing pollution, the pitfalls of waiting for the data to catch up, and the benefits of belonging to the B Corp community.
Tim Greiner (00:01):
Find those allies who can support you and who believe in you and who you can go on that journey together with.
Elizabeth Archer (00:23):
You're listening to Soil to Soul: Farming, Food, Wine, and Our Collective Future, dedicated to exploring diverse voices and perspectives as they relate to farming, food, wine, and the collective future we're working to build. Soil to Soul is brought to you by Bonterra Organic Estates, and is hosted by Jess Baum, Bonterra's Senior Director of Regenerative Impact. Today's guest is Tim Greiner, Co-founder and Managing Director of Pure Strategies, a consulting company that has created sustainability goals and solutions for many clients, including Stonyfield Farm, Ben & Jerry's, Walmart, the North Face, and Seventh Generation. Like Bonterra Organic Estates, Pure Strategies is also a B Corporation, and is celebrating its 25th year in business. We'll talk about Tim's wealth of knowledge and experience in the sustainability field, including how he got started all those years ago and what has kept him going ever since. Today's episode doesn't focus on food and wine, but it's an excellent conversation we are sure you'll enjoy. Listen in, as Jess and Tim discuss the evolution of preventing pollution, the pitfalls of waiting for the data to catch up, and the benefits of belonging to the B Corp community.
Jess Baum (01:44):
Hi Tim, and thank you so much for coming on today. I'm really excited to talk with you and to celebrate 25 years of Pure Strategies, which is absolutely incredible. So we're really thrilled to have you here to talk with us today.
Tim Greiner (01:58):
Well, thank you, Jess. I'm really excited for this conversation. I've been looking forward to it all week. I love the work that you're doing at Bonterra, and I'm excited to dig into it.
Jess Baum (02:12):
I've been really excited for this conversation too. I'm going to kick it off with something I've been really curious about. In a recent conversation you shared with me, that while the last 25 years have been really rewarding, the past three years have been especially so. Can you tell me a little bit about why?
Tim Greiner (02:32):
Yeah. As you mentioned earlier, we're celebrating 25 years as a company, and our business helps sustainability leaders build out their strategy, develop goals, build internal programs, and engage with their consumers, with their supply chains, with all their stakeholders. And it's been fascinating over the last 25 years, because when we started out, it was only working with Angel brands, companies like Seventh Generation and Stonyfield Farm. It shifted about 12 years ago, when Walmart got into the game, we started consulting with Walmart. And that shift was really interesting, because it wasn't just Angel brands who were trying to prove that a business can be socially responsible and economically profitable. In the case of Walmart, they were really trying to take this idea of sustainability and embed it throughout their business, bring it to, if you will, every product, because they didn't want to sell just "sustainable products", they wanted to sell products that are more sustainable.
(03:38):
So that, sort of getting up to now, the last three years, the difference between those two phases and this phase, is that all of that work was more voluntary and leadership driven. And today what's really exciting, is it's increasingly consumer and investor driven. What I mean by that is a more mainstream consumer is interested in and paying attention to sustainability, and investors are realizing that the companies that are doing well in sustainability, those are the ones that have the brightest future and are managing those risks that we all know about that are coming with climate change, that are here today and with other sustainability issues. They know that they're managing them well. So that's what I meant by that comment.
Jess Baum (04:26):
Very interesting. I do have to say, my history in this industry is not as long. I've been in the world of B Corps and sustainable business for a little over a decade, and even in that time alone, I've seen such a shift. It's really incredible to see enlightened consumers wanting to purchase with a purpose and to see the B Corp community go from this small, mighty group to this gigantic movement has been really incredible.
Tim Greiner (04:54):
And even where a lot of consumers recognize the B Corp logo, it's really fascinating. I couldn't agree with you more.
Jess Baum (05:03):
So looking backwards, you and your partner, Bob Kerr, founded Pure Strategies in 1998, and at that point, sustainability was barely part of the conversation. What inspired you, and how did the conversation with Bob start that founded Pure Strategies?
Tim Greiner (05:20):
Bob and I, we were both working in a field we called pollution prevention, and it was this, at the time, novel idea that we couldn't solve pollution problems by just treating pollution after you had created it, like you create a hazardous waste and now you have to manage it and make sure it doesn't pollute the land or water, or you have an air pollution, and you put something on the stack to stop it from harming the community. And we're both in these connected circles, working with mostly government and some companies around how to prevent pollution in the first place, so redesigning your product or changing the way you make products, and to not have the cost associated with all that treatment.
(06:05):
So we got an opportunity to bid on a project for an NGO in DC. Bob and I and a couple other consultants bid, and the business group could blackball a consultant that they didn't want to do the project.The NGO could blackball consultants who they didn't think were fully on board with the project. And this project was around the use of toxic chemicals in manufacturing. I, as a consultant, put my proposal in, and I got blackballed. And another consultant put their name, the other consultant I knew well, he got blackballed by the NGO community. Bob put his hat in the ring, and he didn't get blackballed by either side, but he kind of quickly realized some of the expertise lied with myself and the other consultant who got blackballed.
(06:56):
And so Bob said, look, let's just take the tension around this project and bring it into the team. So the three of us did that project together, and we brought those tensions, the different stakeholder groups and what they were wanting to get out of the project and what they were worried about the project, we brought that tension into the project itself. It was enormously successful. There was policy alignment among the NGO and the business group on thinking about minimizing toxic chemicals in manufacturing. And so out of that project, Bob and I looked at each other and go, we should work together more. And it was at that point we decided let's start thinking about joining our two businesses together.
Jess Baum (07:38):
What happened next, and where did the name Pure Strategies come from? It sounds like thinking about waste, and toxic waste in manufacturing, and then moving into sustainability consultancy within the consumer packaged goods industry, it sounds like really a swimming upstream situation, where you're looking to address the problem at its source, which just makes good sense.
Tim Greiner (08:04):
Yeah, it just makes good sense, right? Why deal with the problem after you've created it? We really believed in the power of business to do something better, and we knew that there were business leaders that were interested in doing that. And rather than working at the tactical level around manufacturing, we also knew that we needed to work with the leadership in a business and talk about strategy. So then, what type of strategy? And it was actually at a bar one night, after a basketball game with a friend, and after a lot of thinking, we came up with the idea of Pure Strategies.
Jess Baum (08:48):
What has it been like, being a pioneer and a leader in this emerging field that just continues to emerge more and more?
Tim Greiner (08:56):
I think the thing about leadership in this field, is that the frontiers are constantly evolving. What we thought was leadership 20 years ago or 15 years ago, it's changed each year over year, such that I would say like 15 years ago, we thought, wow, if we could get these Angel brands to modify the way they make their products or communicate better to consumers, wouldn't that be great? Or geez, if we could get a company like Walmart to engage with their suppliers, think about the global reach of Walmart, and all of those companies in that vast supply chain that are making products, them thinking about their carbon footprint and about the type of labor they use to make their products, wouldn't that be great?
(09:42):
So I think the number-one thing that it's like is the constant change. Part of my journey has been just continuing to think bigger. How do we think bigger with our clients? How do we try to lead the industry and paint that vision for what's next? And an example of that is this space around nature. So we know that not only are we in a climate crisis, but we're facing a huge global biodiversity crisis. There's a UN charter and a convention on biodiversity this past December in Montreal, and two years ago when I learned about the potential for that happening, we just decided that we needed to go out and hire somebody who had that expertise. So we brought a team member in that has a bunch of expertise in biodiversity, and we began building up our own internal capabilities and getting that out in front of our clients. We work with the leaders and we think this is an important space for them to lead in as well.
(10:47):
So that's an example of what it means to be a leader. I think it's like honing your vision, thinking bigger, and really being an effective storyteller and effective communicator for your audience.
Jess Baum (11:03):
One of the things that I love about working in this field is that there's no shortage of change and innovation and continual growth. And that really is how I try to live my life as an individual, is never settling for good enough and always pushing to evolve. And I think that this industry, and by industry I mean the industry of using business as a force for good, is a really great place for people who have that kind of yearning, because there is no stopping. And I think that there's this interesting tension in our work between what we can measure and what we can't, and what is quantifiable and what is not. And sometimes I wonder if we're in a section of time, we're in a moment of time, where we've pushed ourselves so far with what can be quantified that we're in a space where it's almost data overload.
(12:04):
I'm a big believer in quantifying and thinking that's important, but I think that we've lost something in the qualitative piece, that focus on nature really brings back in an interesting way. How do you work with that tension between what can be measured and what can't, and ensuring that we do measure what we can to hold ourselves accountable to continual progress, while also not letting what we can't yet measure be the enemy of growth?
Tim Greiner (12:33):
Yeah, that's a great question. A perfect example of that is soil carbon. I know Bonterra's very involved in this, as is Pure Strategies. We believe that good agricultural practices, regenerative agriculture, can have enormous benefits not only for soil, but for sequestering carbon in the soil, yet the challenges of measuring that are manifold. I mean, soil is such a dynamic medium, and carbons being continuously exchanged between the atmosphere and the soil, and is dependent upon rainfall and weather. Nevertheless, we know that's the right thing to do. So when I first got into regenerative agriculture five years ago, everyone said, well, we're going to be able to measure this in three years, so we'll just set goals around how much carbon we're going to sequester. And well, five years later, we have an idea how to do it, but our models are still incomplete. To your point, we can't let the lack of good data or methods or precise science get in the way of doing what's right.
(13:44):
I know that it's important to understand the science, but not let the lack of definitive proof prevent you from moving ahead. It's the same thing when we look at the use of chemicals in commerce, right? There are so many substances out there that have high hazard. We don't have exact data on how they affect humans, not only a single chemical, but how multiple chemicals can affect human health or environmental health, but we know that there's real risks with them. And that's why when we do a chemicals policy for companies, we're really focusing on the hazards. We're not waiting 20 years or 15 years for some risk assessment to come out that actually shows how bad PFAS is. We knew that was bad 20 years ago, and the regulations aren't even there yet to take a substance like that and limited it in commerce, right? It's just beginning now. We really have to remind ourselves that we have to take advantage of the knowledge that we have, the science that we already have, without waiting for the perfect data.
Jess Baum (14:50):
I remember, in grad school, learning about the TSCA, the Toxic Substances Control Act passed in 1976, and being shocked and horrified to learn that instead of being considered guilty until proven innocent, toxic substances are in fact innocent until proven guilty, meaning that there can be things put out into the world, in the US, that we think of as this developed country, that are actually harmful, but if we aren't able to prove it, then there is no measurable harm. And so I think it's interesting. What you talk about here makes me think that faith is not the antithesis of science, that the practice of science, in the doing of it, requires a bit of faith. We can't be so small-minded that we only believe that what is measurable currently is real. The world was round before people could prove that, and the proving comes through later sometimes.
(16:05):
Thinking about these past 25 years, what has fueled you and kept you going, and was there ever a time that you considered giving up?
Tim Greiner (16:16):
What's fueled me? That's a great question. For me, I feel like such a connection to nature, and I treasure it so much. And there are special places in my life that I go to when I think about that connection, and so that drives, for me, so much of my work in sustainability. That's from a nature standpoint. From a human health standpoint, I've just been around people who have worked in workplaces and exposed to toxic chemicals, and have had cancer and even have died from those cancers, and so that also motivates my work. So that's kind of the underlying drive for me. I don't think there's ever been a time when I've felt like I needed to give up or walk away, but there's always discouraging moments. And I think the most recent one that I can think about is when that IPCC report came out in February, and I don't know if you, do you remember that report? It was about the impacts of climate change and how dire they look right now?
Jess Baum (17:27):
Yeah, I do. That was a hard moment for me as well.
Tim Greiner (17:32):
Yeah. I mean, the report said we have seven years to turn this around, and I kind of just almost fell off my chair reading it. And then I looked around, and it was like everyone was going about their lives. It was like business as usual. So I just checked in with a few people, and I mentioned this to them, and they were blown away, but the response from actually one of my sons was, "Well, that's a real downer." And it is a real downer, but it's also, it's motivation to work harder, to not be put down by that, but actually to bring that point up, to use that to drive my network and to try to influence those people that I work with to do what they're able to do.
Jess Baum (18:23):
It's really challenging and complicated to have your eyes wide open and to be reading the science as it comes out, and to feel like it's paradigm shifting. It's an existential threat, yet people go on with business as usual, and it reminds me of the movie Don't Look Up. Did you watch that?
Tim Greiner (18:42):
Yes, I did.
Jess Baum (18:44):
Yeah, what a powerful statement on that complicit denial that we adopt as humans as a defense mechanism, in order to live in the world and continue on. It's so interesting. And I think B Corp, and the emergence of B Corp in 2006 until now and its continued growth, really brings me hope in the face of that complicit denial that so many people hold. When did Pure Strategies become a B Corp, and when did you get involved in the B Corp community?
Tim Greiner (19:19):
We started looking at B Corp probably eight years ago. It had been on my radar before that, but we had just never really focused on it. I want to say in 2018 was the year that we first got certified. I'm not exactly sure, but it feels like about five years ago. I had known several B Corp companies and several of them were clients, and so we went through the certification process and we learned a lot. We saw that there were policies and elements of the way we were running our business that we could improve through that assessment. So it was super valuable for us. It also spurred us to bring in an independent director onto our board that would look at our B Corp performance and help us write a public report about that each year. But I have to say that just for me, the biggest moment around what B Corp was and what it could be, was going to, what's the annual meeting called, the Champions Retreat?
Jess Baum (20:24):
The Champions Retreat.
Tim Greiner (20:26):
Yeah. I just came out of that meeting so jazzed up, so excited. The caliber of people, the vision of B Corp, and the community that B Corp is, is inspiring, and there's a commitment there, as you know, for B Corp to help other B Corps, to be an ally, to share resources, to lend an ear, lend capabilities wherever they can. It's really a great network, and it's one that we've taken advantage of and we've contributed to.
Jess Baum (21:00):
Yeah. I think, in a way, capitalism has taken us so far away from this concept of living as a village and living in community and supporting one another, in favor of competing with one another, right?
Tim Greiner (21:14):
Yeah.
Jess Baum (21:14):
And in the B Corp community, we have a saying that we don't want to compete to be the best in the world, we want to compete to be the best for the world, and when we do that, everybody wins. And so there's this feeling of collaboration and community that comes, this feeling of being in capitalism, yet still being part of a village, where you have people you can lean on, who you can ask for support, where you're not trying to beat each other out or win, you're trying to create a system where we all win.
(21:59):
We're going to end with a segment that we call quick questions. So I'm going to ask you a few questions and would love just quick, one-sentence answers, and we'll move through this quite fast. So Tim, what did you want to be when you grew up?
Tim Greiner (22:17):
I wanted to be a mountain climber.
Jess Baum (22:19):
What's your eco confession?
Tim Greiner (22:21):
I use Amazon too much.
Jess Baum (22:24):
Hard relate. And, what's the most impactful thing that you've read in the last year?
Tim Greiner (22:30):
It's a book called The Rescue Effect by Michael Mehta Webster. It's a book about biodiversity.
Jess Baum (22:39):
What place brings you joy?
Tim Greiner (22:42):
West Pond. It's the pond out back of our house that we have epic hockey games on every winter.
Jess Baum (22:48):
And what's your life motto?
Tim Greiner (22:52):
Take a risk. Don't be afraid. Take a risk.
Jess Baum (22:57):
Well, I will take that with me today for sure. And I just want to thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation, and also for all of the years of service and dedication and inspiration that you've demonstrated in this movement, and the way that you've created spaces for others to come in. It's really amazing to see. I want to ask you one last question. What advice or guidance do you have for those just getting involved in this work?
Tim Greiner (23:28):
I would say really recognize that we're in a struggle. And you talked about earlier, like capitalism and feeling alienated or up against systems that you don't know how to reign in, if you will, like fossil fuel extraction, but just recognize that you have the power to make a difference, and you're part of a greater group of people that are also in that struggle. And so find those allies who can support you and who believe in you and who you can go on that journey together with.
Jess Baum (24:01):
Thank you for that and for coming on today, and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you always.
Tim Greiner (24:08):
Well, thank you, Jess. I really enjoyed our conversation today.
Elizabeth Archer (24:31):
Thanks for listening to The Soil to Soul podcast, hosted by Jess Baum and produced by me, Elizabeth Archer, right here in Mendocino County, on behalf of Bonterra Organic Estates, the largest regenerative organic winery in the United States. If you love wine, look for Bonterra's first-ever regenerative, organic, certified estate collection, Cabernet Sauvignon and Chardonnay, in a store near you. To learn more, visit bonterra.com. Original music composed by Mendocino County musician, Julian Sterling. Thanks again to today's guest, Tim Greiner, Co-Founder and Managing Director of Pure Strategies. We hope you join us again next week for another compelling conversation about farming, food, wine, and the collective future we're working to build.