Hear the hustle and bustle of New York City outside wine writer Wanda Mann's window as she and host Jess Baum discuss the connective power of food and wine; why social media is a valid place to get your wine information; and Wanda's special connection to Chilean icon wine Don Melchor, including her mom's love for the winemaker.
Wanda Mann is the East Coast Editor of The SOMM Journal and The Tasting Panel, and founder of "Wine with Wanda." Her writing has also been published in Food & Wine, Decanter, VinePair, and NAPA Magazine, and she has a loyal following on Instagram.
Wanda is a speaker, host, and judge at wine events around the world, including the Food & Wine Classic in Aspen, the Nantucket Wine & Food Festival, and the Women In Wine Leadership Symposium. She is also on the board of the Society of Wine Educators.
You can find her at winewithwanda.com or on Instagram at WineDineWanda.
Wanda Mann (00:01):
Wine is a lifelong grad school… there's always something new I can learn.
Elizabeth Archer (00:08):
You're listening to the Soil to Soul podcast, brought to you by Bonterra Organic Estates. Soil to Soul is hosted by Jess Baum, Bonterra's Senior Director of Regenerative Impact. Season two features accomplished and fascinating wine writers across the spectrum of outlets and backgrounds.
(00:40):
Today's guest is Wanda Mann, East Coast Editor of The SOMM Journal and The Tasting Panel. Her writing has also been published in Food & Wine, Decanter, VinePair, and NAPA Magazine, and she has a loyal following on Instagram. Wanda is a speaker, host, and judge at wine events around the world, including the Food & Wine Classic in Aspen, the Nantucket Wine and Food Festival, and the Women in Wine Leadership Symposium. She is also on the board of the Society of Wine Educators. Hear the hustle and bustle of New York City outside Wanda's window as she and Jess discussed the connective power of food and wine, why social media is a valid place to get your wine information, and Wanda's special connection to Chilean icon wine, Don Melchor, including her mom's love for the winemaker.
Jess Baum (01:40):
Welcome to the podcast, Wanda. We're so excited to have you here today.
Wanda Mann (01:44):
Thank you so much for inviting me to be here.
Jess Baum (01:46):
In a world full of food and beverage choices, why focus on wine?
Wanda Mann (01:52):
Very good question. I certainly love a great cup of tea or a beautiful fresh-squeezed orange juice, and there's certainly stories in every category and everything in life, but I think wine is the rare beverage that so beautifully combines culture, history, science, artistry, tradition, brings people to in a very special way, has a spiritual aspect to it, just permeates our culture and, really, so many different areas. I don't think other beverages quite have the same reach and strength when it comes to that.
Jess Baum (02:26):
In a short answer, you really summed it up beautifully. Thank you. Articles, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Substack, you do it all. Which medium do you think most effectively captures and communicates all that makes wine so unique?
Wanda Mann (02:45):
Writing was always my first love. That's what I've been doing my whole life ever since I was a little girl. And when wine came into my life, there was really no looking back and it really just came together so beautifully all of the stories and wine. You can never go wrong having solid writing skills, having that discipline, researching, knowing how to ask questions. I think all of us realize that the landscape for everything has changed, whatever industry you're in. So while there will always be a power to the written word, we're all very much competing with the quickness, the immediacy of social media, those little tidbits of information that just go viral and spread out into the world.
(03:25):
So I would say, again, I'm probably really biased towards writing because you can really delve deep, but also sometimes that's the disadvantage of what we do as writers. Often, it's much more powerful and succinct and effective to do a really great Instagram post where it catches someone's eye and that information sticks very quickly. So sometimes, it's taking that vast amount of knowledge that we have that maybe we would normally put in an article or repurposing that article into smaller bits that are easier for the public to digest because social media is not going away. And we all know that it's been really a game changer for the wine industry, so we just need to learn how to use it effectively.
Jess Baum (04:09):
So I've heard it said that those who understand something can explain it in great detail, but those with mastery can put it into a very succinct, easy-to-understand soundbite. And so it sounds like with the expertise that you bring, perhaps there's an efficacy that comes from the quickness and the brevity required of social media.
Wanda Mann (04:31):
I agree. I have a friend from South Carolina who always says, "You got to boil it down to the low gravy. Get to the point."
Jess Baum (04:48):
You are the East Coast Editor of The SOMM Journal and The Tasting Panel. You're a frequent contributor to outlets like Food & Wine, Decanter, and VinePair. You're a speaker, host, and judge at wine events around the world, a very active social media influencer, and a Substack author on Wine with Wanda. Where do you find time to do everything, and how do you keep the wine-loving spark alive?
Wanda Mann (05:15):
Oh my goodness. The time? I don't know. I'm lucky in that I generally have control over my day and the hours, but I'm not saying it's always easy. So sometimes, really I have to sit down and say, "This is what I want to write about right now, but there's an assignment with a deadline." Sometimes, I have to do the grown-up stuff first and do the more playful things that are just... Substack is really just my passion project. But it's not always easy, so it does take a certain amount of discipline. And deadlines are great because it does help you. Sometimes, I have to impose deadlines on myself for my own personal projects as well, not just use them for magazine and article assignments.
Jess Baum (05:56):
Those deadlines we impose on ourselves are dangerous. I think the trick is somehow forgetting that it's self-imposed. I don't always master that.
Wanda Mann (06:05):
We can be hard on ourselves sometimes too. But you asked how I keep the spark of the love of wine alive. That's not hard because each day is so different. It could be a day that's full of writing and meeting deadlines, and the next day is maybe having a lunchtime tasting with the producer and sharing bottles and stories. The following day, you could be hopping a plane to do winery visits or to lead a seminar. So I think that's what keeps me going, and also knowing that I'll never ever know everything about wine, that even the masters of wine will tell you it's impossible to know everything. So I always regretted not going to grad school. And for me, I feel that wine is a lifelong grad school, that there's always something new I can learn.
(06:49):
In the beginning, it took me a while to feel comfortable writing about the technical side of wine. So I spent a lot of time trying to not become an expert, but to develop a foundation so I'd feel comfortable explaining certain concepts. So there's always something there to keep you in love with wine.
Jess Baum (07:06):
Thank you for sharing that. In 2015, you earned the Certified Specialist of Wine credential from the Society of Wine Educators. What does that entail?
Wanda Mann (07:17):
It's a program I feel doesn't get as much attention as it should. For me especially, I'm not a sommelier. I never worked in a restaurant or any type of job where I spent a lot of time working with wine. I was an events planner and I did produce some wine tastings, but it was only a small part of my job. So for me, it was really important to find a way to study a curriculum to make sure I had a grasp of some basic concepts. And it's a self-study course, which again requires another type of discipline.
(07:47):
So really, it was a lot of reading and a pile, a mountain of flashcards. Oh my goodness, I had so many flashcards. I was constantly quizzing myself and I was having little tasting parties with my friends and testing what I learned on them.
(08:02):
And what's interesting about that is now, I'm on the board of Society of Wine Educators. So I just joined the board this year. So 2015, I was a newbie and a rookie, and now I'm on the board because I want more people to know that there's so many different ways to learn about wine. Some people are autodidacts. Some do really well with the [inaudible 00:08:21] set curriculum. And I think the CSW is a nice opportunity as well if you just want to make sure you have some of those basic concepts understood.
Jess Baum (08:31):
What a cool journey to go from the student to the teacher.
Wanda Mann (08:34):
Exactly.
Jess Baum (08:46):
You love Don Melchor.
Wanda Mann (08:48):
Oh my goodness.
Jess Baum (08:49):
Or at least we know your mom loves Enrique Tirado, the winemaker.
Wanda Mann (08:53):
Yes, she does.
Jess Baum (08:54):
What's the deal with that, and why is there such an affinity between you and Don Melchor?
Wanda Mann (08:59):
I'm going to start with my mom because it's always a fun story to tell. Now, my mom is not really a wine drinker, but she loves this journey that I'm on and she loves seeing the photos. So she saw a picture of Enrique that I posted in an article and my mom, who's a very nice little woman from Georgia, lived in New York for many years but I still think of her as a nice little lady from Georgia goes, "That's my kind of man." Oh my goodness, Mom. So I had to explain to my mom, "Do you realize this is one of the most important winemakers in the world?" I had to let her know he's more than a pretty face.
(09:33):
But for me, Don Melchor was really a breakthrough wine. And it's so funny. I just had lunch with someone who asked me what was an aha moment in wine. And Don Melchor probably came into my life about eight to 10 years ago. I've lost track of time. I was sent a sample that I wasn't expecting. I didn't really have any information on the wine, didn't know about it at all. And I had a friend with the local wine bar who would let me bring bottles, and I was meeting some friends for dinner and none of them were really wine geeks like I am. And I was like, Oh, Cabernet Sauvignon. Everybody likes that. Let me just grab this bottle." I open it and I go, "Oh my God, what a beautiful wine." And everyone at the table had the same reaction like, "Oh, can I see that bottle? What is this?"
(10:22):
So when I got home later that night and I started Googling, I'm like, "Oh my goodness. This is an icon wine." I honestly had no idea at that time. So I just came to love the wine without any preconceived notions. It just came to me like, "Here I am." And it was just love at first sip. And I think of all the wines I've tasted, it's the only one where I've had the opportunity to taste, I think, almost every vintage. So it's very rare to have that connection to wine, to see it evolve, to see the consistency, to have a winemaker like Enrique who can explain it in such detail, but with such joy and passion. So it is a very special wine for me, and the fact that it brings me and my mom close in a very funny way is an added bonus. But even without that, I really do adore Don Melchor. Long live Don Melchor and Enrique Tirado.
Jess Baum (11:16):
I love the way that you talk about wine. You've talked about a certain vintage or a certain bottle coming into your life almost the way that we would talk about an important person coming into our life. And I love that you seem to just open yourself to the opportunity of wine to create culture and community and new experiences. The way you speak of it is just so beautiful.
Wanda Mann (11:41):
It's true. I mean wine, you can go as deep as you want. At the surface level, yes, it is a beverage and we drink it, and it's pleasant and it's pretty and it tastes good. But I also think wine is a catalyst that can push us out our comfort zone.
(11:54):
I think so many of the issues that we have in the world, people who are afraid of getting out of their comfort zone. So when I have a friend who will only drink one type of wine, I'll say, "Get out of your comfort zone a little. You might want to try something new." And often, that's the first step to learning about a new region and connecting with other people who share that passion for wine. So I think it's a gateway that can take you as far as you want.
(12:20):
There definitely have been moments where I'm like, "You know what? This would not have happened without this connection between me and this person." This shared love and respect for wine has led to great friendships, great opportunities, better understanding of people who are different, putting us at a table together where normally we would not have been.
(12:41):
Wine is often such an important tool for talking about important issues like climate change. Maybe people who weren't paying attention before, well listen. You know what? That wine that you love so much? Might not be much of it left if it continues this way. So I think wine really has been an important part of this discussion about what we do to protect our planet and our resources and a part that we can all do. Whether it's using fewer chemicals, the weight of the bottle, these are all things that the wine industry is doing, but will trickle out into other industries. And people are very attached to their wine. So I think when they realize, "Ooh, climate's messing up the wine? All right, I'm going to start paying attention."
Jess Baum (13:27):
We've been talking about climate in wine for so much longer than any other industry than I could think of, so it is the perfect platform from which to talk about our changing climate.
Wanda Mann (13:39):
Absolutely, absolutely. So often, and I think the media, we've been guilty of this as well, for a long time we seem to have this disconnect and we would forget that wine is an agricultural product. So we were very focused on the glamour and the lifestyle. And that's all beautiful, but without Mother Nature, it doesn't exist. So I think it's so wonderful that we're all putting that as much as possible back in the conversation that it starts with the land and the land is in trouble, and what can we do to fix that.
Jess Baum (14:12):
We've talked about your mom a little bit. I want to ask a question about your dad. You often attribute your love of wine to your dad, who was a chef.
Wanda Mann (14:20):
Mm-hmm.
Jess Baum (14:21):
Tell us more about his influence on your career in wine.
Wanda Mann (14:25):
Yeah, it's funny. Sometimes, you look back and there are all these little moments do you realize planted the seed for what you're doing as an adult. So definitely, what my dad always say that food was our love language. I shared his adventurous palette. I was a kid who would eat everything. Bring me more liver. I'll take seconds. I just loved food. And my dad, he just got a kick out of that.
(14:47):
And when I was 16, he bought me my first bottle of wine. And it was the perfect wine for a 16-year-old girl. It was Beaujolais nouveau, which is basically juice. But I remember that moment being so special, him handing me the bottle, "This is wine," teaching me this idea of respecting it, that this was something different to be mindful. Don't drink the whole bottle at once. So it was an important lesson. He just showed me that what we eat and what we drink is such an important part of life's journey to try new things.
(15:20):
My father was from rural North Carolina, came to New York as a teenager, had a mentor that brought him into the world of the New York City kitchen, and my dad ended up being classically-trained chef. He was very proud of his southern roots and tradition and all those things that have been passed down through the family, but also being able to make a living as a chef in New York and support his kids with the new skills that he had learned. He took it very, very seriously and just showed me there's a lot of pride. I just remember how hard he worked, but I also remember that smile on his face when he would cook me something and I would say, "I want more. This is really good." The pride that he felt.
(16:01):
I remember him being very particular when I first moved into my own apartment in my 20s. One day, he started going through my cabinets and my fridge, just started throwing stuff out. He said, "Oh no, this is bad quality. Don't ever buy that." He really taught me so much about "This is how you buy a piece of meat. This is what you look for in an olive oil." Even as a struggling professional in my 20s, I'd rather spend a few extra dollars and get the better quality. That's an important lesson that lingered.
Jess Baum (16:27):
I feel similarly with quality and also with purchasing with a purpose and with my values and being part of the solution and not creating more problems.
Wanda Mann (16:38):
True.
Jess Baum (16:50):
The wine industry is not known for being particularly diverse. You were the president of Les Dames d'Escoffier in New York, an organization with a mission to advance and support aspiring professional women in food and beverage as well as to champion critical industry issues. What issues do you think are most critical to address the diversity gaps in the food and beverage industry?
Wanda Mann (17:13):
Ooh, this is a tough one. I will say the wine industry has gotten more diverse, so I always think it's important to acknowledge when progress has been made. Those milestones matter. I remember when I first started showing up at wine events in, let's say 2003, or '04, sometime back then, there were very few people that looked like me. Young women, young women of color, we were not represented at the table. So now, there are more of us very visible. There are leaders in industry.
(17:46):
I always say, though, it's not just about having a seat at the table. It's about having your voice heard, being respected, feeling that when you speak, people are listening, that you're not there just for a performative reason for them to check a box. "Well, we invited the Black woman." So it's great to see. I'm so proud. I look at this new generation of wine writers and content creators, and I do see a lot more diversity.
(18:12):
On the business side of it, it still seems to be lacking. So I don't know if it's a matter of going into colleges and saying, "If you're interested in business, law, geology, the environment, there's a career in wine." Not everyone in wine needs to be a winemaker or a content creator. There are a lot of other positions that I think could be filled by a more diverse population, and I don't think we're focusing on that.
(18:38):
And also, my feeling is I always, and again not to be naive, I think sometimes we underestimate the power of wine to bring people together. So I don't like things that feel overtly segregated. So we're going to do this event for the wine people of color. Well, we all love being around our affinity groups, but if we're going to make progress, we need to share the issues and the challenges. They need to be heard by those in positions to make change.
(19:08):
So no one has all the answers. I certainly don't. There's a lot more to be done, but I feel good about what I've seen change so far. But I would like to see more women and more people of color in some of those other positions as well.
Jess Baum (19:24):
Something you said that really sparks something within me is that it's not just about giving people a seat at the table. It's about listening. It's about inviting diverse voices to share and to be heard and to be elevated.
Wanda Mann (19:39):
I've been doing this long enough now I can discern when someone invites me to do something. It's like, "Oh, Wanda. We like her writing," or "We like how much she knows about this category," as opposed to "Oh, we need to get a Black woman in the mix, don't we?" You can tell.
(19:53):
But I do agree. Representation is important. So I try to be out there as much as I'm comfortable with because I do want younger women in the industry to see hey, if she can do it, I can do that and even go further than I have.
(20:06):
But also, I always tell people I don't speak for everyone. We are not a monolith, and I think that's another mistake that we often make. I love it when I walk into a room and I see a wine event that reflects what the world really looks like. So I live in New York, and there's no reason why a wine event should not be diverse. So it warms my heart when I see the world coming together at an event.
Jess Baum (20:32):
That's a great perspective that if young people are going to really buy into wine and become passionate about it, it has to reflect who we are today as a society and what matters to us today. Something that we're seeing right now is the future of wine marketing is around impact and sustainability. That's becoming a huge part of the conversation. What we hope to do at Bonterra is to lead that change. And I think it's so important that wine, which to me in some way is nature and a bottle, is being a protector of its origin, of where it came from, of the land itself.
Wanda Mann (21:12):
That's beautifully said. I live very much in the concrete jungle. Wine has definitely connected me more to nature. I always joke when I visit a vineyard, I say, "I'm only outdoorsy in vineyards." It just has opened me up into how I wasn't talking about biodiversity 20 years ago. Now I'm like, "We need the worms. God bless you, worms. Bees are so important. We got to protect our bees." So wine has really shown me how it's all connected. This ecosystem's so fragile, and it's very easy in this bubble of Manhattan to forget when I go to my supermarket, what it took for all that food to get there.
Jess Baum (21:56):
You've written a lot about how to pair wine and food. What is an unusual pairing that people think might be weird, but for you just totally works?
Wanda Mann (22:07):
I don't like to think of them as unusual because for me, that's almost like the term, "Oh, it's exotic." It's a little loaded. But what I do are high-low pairings because I think too often, we've relegated to wine as a special occasion. Whether you're having a slice of pizza or making some spaghetti at home, have a nice bottle of wine. Nice does not mean expensive, but have a nice bottle of wine instead of reaching for a cola. I think it really elevates the experience.
(22:40):
Now, we all talk about it. People thought I was crazy when I was like, "Popeye's chicken and champagne. I'm telling you." Now, that's all anyone talks about, is fried chicken and champagne. There are whole restaurants built around this concept now. So I really think it's like the foods that we eat and enjoy already, there's a wine for you out there that matches with it.
Jess Baum (23:01):
How can people on a budget still enjoy excellent food and wine?
Wanda Mann (23:05):
I think the great thing now, more people realize that there are good wines available for $15. We've come so far in terms of quality. So the ability to make good wine, it's pretty widespread.
(23:21):
I always tell people it's so important to develop a good relationship with your retailer. The same way you have a bookstore or a butcher that you trust their advice, visit a few wine shops and find the one that really connects with you and that doesn't embarrass you or shame you or instantly try to sell you the most expensive thing. Because the really good shops? They love that challenge of "Hey, I have about 12 bucks and this is what I'm making tonight. What do you recommend?" And a good shop will have that, and it will still be a really good wine.
Jess Baum (23:55):
That's excellent advice and also sounds like somebody who's passionate about wine. That sounds like a great puzzle to solve for.
Wanda Mann (24:02):
I had never worked in a retail environment, but I have a friend. His family purchased a wine shop in Brooklyn. During the holidays a few years ago he said, "Could you come around and help? Because..." He's like, "We bought this place, but we don't really... We bought it as an investment and we'd like someone on the floor during the holidays could answer questions about wine." And I was really excited. I was like, "Ooh, this would be a research opportunity for me."
(24:25):
There were some people who were like, "I only drink this and that's that." And they would reach for that and they don't want to try anything else. That's fine. If that's what makes you feel good at long hard day, that's your joy. Not going to take that away from you.
(24:38):
But I loved it when someone would let me take them around the store and explain different things. And it's like, "Okay, well if you like pinot noir, have you tried a Beaujolais cru? Do you know the Gamay grape? Oh, you like pinot grigio. Have you ever tried a Vermentino?" And some people, they're like, "No, I haven't." And often, they would buy both, the one they like and then the one that I recommend so they could try them side by side. So yeah, if you go into a wine shop with those types of questions, because it's usually wine geeks working at the good shops, they live for those types of customers.
Jess Baum (25:11):
Wanda, thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your passion and love of wine. It's been a joy speaking with you.
Wanda Mann (25:20):
Well, thank you so much. It's been an honor, and I really respect what Bonterra is doing, making wine with that mission of caring for our planet and protecting those resources, having a diverse workforce, treating people well. It's all hand in hand. Wine really represents something so much bigger than what's in the bottle, and I think Bonterra is really setting a great example for the industry. So thank you all for your hard work.
Jess Baum (25:43):
Bonterra does mean good earth, and that's what we strive for here. So thank you for acknowledging that.
Wanda Mann (25:49):
Well, thank you. And Enrique, if you're listening, hello.
Elizabeth Archer (26:14):
Thank you for listening to the Soil to Soul podcast hosted by Jess Baum and produced by me, Elizabeth Archer, right here in Mendocino County on behalf of Bonterra Organic Estates, the largest regenerative organic winery in the U.S. To learn more and to get 20% off your wine order, visit bonterra.com and use the promo code, Soil to Soul. We're especially proud of our Estate Collection, comprising four affordable and exceptional Regenerative Organic Certified wines from our Hopland vineyards in Mendocino County. Original music for the podcast was composed by Mendocino County musician, Julian Sterling.
(26:53):
Thanks again to today's guest, Wanda Mann. You can find her at winewithwanda.com or on Instagram at winedinewanda.
(27:02):
If you liked this episode, please rate, review, and share our podcast to help others find it too. Next week on the podcast, we'll talk with Sophie Menin, an award-winning cultural journalist and author whose new book, A Year in the Vineyard, illustrates the year-long cycle of the vine. See you then.